Ross Kemp and the Armed please

[Nigel]

I agree with you there about the US. But I've often wondered why other countries in the World, that the public have similar access to weapons, do not have the same level of gun crime?

The US by a long way have more guns available to the general population. 112.6 guns per 100 people. Couple this with much of America basically a third world country then you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[Midwest]

He wasn’t chased, he was followed.
An undercover officer grabbed hold of him in a bear hug after alerting armed officers to his location.
Armed officers then dragged the undercover officer away, two officers then pinned Mendez down in his seat one either side holding on to his arms.
He was shot 7 times at point blank range, though 11 shots were fired.
Stephen Waldorf was shot 5 times in the Mayfair Mini shooting. Again 11 shots in total were fired in that incident.
The driver of the Mini and the other passenger were not hit.

What I find most worrying in the Mendez incident, is that 4 of the shots fired at point blank range, missed.

In the Waldorf incident, 2 shots were fired at a wheel of the Mini, the other 9 into the passenger compartment.
Again 4 shots missed.
One of the officers attempted to shoot Waldorf in the head at point blank range, but was unaware he had already discharged all 6 rounds from his revolver.

Both incidents took place in crowded public areas and it is a miracle that bystanders were not injured.

Those two incidents, were completely different and worlds away in terms of police deployment of firearms & tactics. They failed (Warldorf) , in that they should of identified, located & neutralised the threat.

The Menezes incident was also a failure, because of the poor or incorrect intelligence, not withstanding it followed on the back of the London bombings, where everyone was a bit on edge. But what the AFO's did, was the tactic they had been taught and authorised to carry out.

 

[Midwest]

The US by a long way have more guns available to the general population. 112.6 guns per 100 people. Couple this with much of America basically a third world country then you have a recipe for disaster.

I've never looked at the figures, just other countries in the world I don't perceive have the same issues?

 

[Nigel]

That was some time ago, I agree with essex point, the actual deployment of firearms (sad as it is), was let down by poor or failed intelligence.

The actual tactic used then was new; instead of shoot to 'neutralise', changed to (when the suspect was thought to be carrying an IED) shoot to immobilise, which was shooting a suspect at very very close range in the head, hopefully preventing said explosion. So you can imagine even the best shot would be a bit edgy when doing so, when it could be your last moments.

Training at the time was to shoot at the spine at the neck point so that it would severe the nerves that would control things below the neck so they could not trigger a device.

It is easy to see how a couple of shots missed when attempting to be so precise.

 

[Midwest]

Training at the time was to shoot at the spine at the neck point so that it would severe the nerves that would control things below the neck so they could not trigger a device.

It is easy to see how a coulle of shots missed when attempting to be so precise.

No it wasn't.

It was shooting into the head mass. Some people have a perception that AFO's in other situations can shoot at a suspects legs to neutralise them. They are not taught that, they are taught to shoot the main body mass, more likely to hit the target and neutralise the suspect.

Trying to shoot at the spine would not be achievable; the target in this scenario is the head.

 

[Squid]

Who was the guy shot 6 times by Police when in the back of a car and survived, mistaken identity, I think in the late 80's?

Ah found it 5 times Stephen Waldorf.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The training is not to shoot at the neck, it’s to shoot at the head.
The shots fired at the head were determined to have been fired at a distance of less than 4 inches.

The fact that 3 of the shots fired missed at such a close range, should be a concern for everyone.
My understanding is that there were 17 other passengers in the carriage.

 

[Midwest]

The training is not to shoot at the neck, it’s to shoot at the head.
The shots fired at the head were determined to have been fired at a distance of less than 4 inches.

The fact that 3 of the shots fired missed at such a close range, should be a concern for everyone.
My understanding is that there were 17 other passengers in the carriage.

I've already said that.

Even at such close range, a head is easily missable. The sights of the weapon are not used, just sense of direction.

An AFO must before firing ascertain; have I clearly identified my target, is my field of fire clear of innocents, what are the possibility of ricochet.

When someone could be construed to be about to initiate an IED, the last two could be considered a risk worth taking. ​

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I hardly ever used mine and sold it on (legally) a good few years back and it wasn't kept in the UK before anyone asks, all legal and above board at the gun club.

View attachment 44177

Is that a Tokarev?

 

[Nigel]

The training is not to shoot at the neck, it’s to shoot at the head.
The shots fired at the head were determined to have been fired at a distance of less than 4 inches.

The fact that 3 of the shots fired missed at such a close range, should be a concern for everyone.
My understanding is that there were 17 other passengers in the carriage.

You cannot miss the head from 4 inches. It is not possible. So something is not right in that statement.

 

[solarsavings]

Some need to refresh their memory of the events leading up to and what happened on that day Death of Jean Charles de Menezes - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

 

[Midwest]

You cannot miss the head from 4 inches. It is not possible. So something is not right in that statement.

It is possible. Especially when your on the receiving and have no intention of getting shot in the head, even when someone else is holding you down. Dunno where this 4 inches comes from anyway?

 

[GMES]

I know very little about firearms, I have fired a shotgun and I own a couple of decent air rifles So I'm far from qualified but I would have to agree with Essex in that it must be close to impossible to miss someone's head from 4 inches away.

 

[GMES]

Another good point is I started the thread to see if any of you had seen the programme and your thoughts on it, I didn't want it to become purely about 1 person and should he have been shot or not, although it is worth talking about.
The real surprise for me with the programme was how the increase in armed officers was originaĺly because of the terror threat but is now used more for inner city gun crimes, it would appear now that they are kicking down approximately 3 doors a day related to gun crimes and not terror related.

 

[Midwest]

Its not as if your going to be willing victim, in the ensuing struggle quite easy to miss something as small as a head, even at close range. Not sure where this 4 inches comes from.

The idea behind this particular tactic, was to approach the suspect from behind and shoot into the head at close range, preventing him from realising he was about to be shot, and giving him time to initiate his device.

In the Menezes incident, the tactic was slightly altered. Shooting the suspect in the torso, could of initiated the device, or not incapacitated quick enough.

 

[Midwest]

Another good point is I started the thread to see if any of you had seen the programme and your thoughts on it, I didn't want it to become purely about 1 person and should he have been shot or not, although it is worth talking about.
The real surprise for me with the programme was how the increase in armed officers was originaĺly because of the terror threat but is now used more for inner city gun crimes, it would appear now that they are kicking down approximately 3 doors a day related to gun crimes and not terror related.

It is on the increase. Just yesterday in our little sleepy town, a local post office shop was robbed at gun point (allegedly).

Why its on the increase, I don't know. Is it part of the immigration of foreign gangs, or just criminals have easier access to weapons?

 

[Midwest]

There was one guy, Slough area I think, who was convicted of reactivating firearms and converting them. Sold onto criminals. He had a little workshop in his garage. Not some ----, but a 'normal' guy making ends meet.

 

[Midwest]

Another incident I recall, was a chap killed on his moped in a crash. Cops were trying to trace him and his next of kin. Located his property, on a remote bit of farmland, collection of caravans & sheds etc. Whilst they were looking for details of next of kin, they came across unlicensed firearms, loads of them. Wasn't know if he was into selling them, a just a collector maniac.

 

[ruston]

Another incident I recall, was a chap killed on his moped in a crash. Cops were trying to trace him and his next of kin. Located his property, on a remote bit of farmland, collection of caravans & sheds etc. Whilst they were looking for details of next of kin, they came across unlicensed firearms, loads of them. Wasn't know if he was into selling them, a just a collector maniac.

There were a lot of 'surplus weapons left lying about ' after WW2, many of them used in farming communities . I suppose it is feasible that many could still be concealed in remote areas yet to be discovered.

 

[Squid]

Is that a Tokarev?

Makarov.

My Uncle hid some guns away in Poland which as he has now passed away no one can find as he said "you never know wen the Russians will invade again" as they live 16km from the Ukrainian border.

 

[Squid]

There were a lot of 'surplus weapons left lying about ' after WW2, many of them used in farming communities . I suppose it is feasible that many could still be concealed in remote areas yet to be discovered.

Lots of weapons/ordnance was stolen and sold on, plus all the trophy weapons, like Lugers etc etc, for some reason which I will never know my Uncle in the UK (since passed away) has a Japanese officers sword hanging in his study.

 

[Squid]

Some need to refresh their memory of the events leading up to and what happened on that day Death of Jean Charles de Menezes - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

We know that some of live in London and have lived and grown up with these threats day in and day out, but at the end of the day an innocent man was killed.

Soldiers are being hauled in for questioning for things that happened in NI 40 years ago but the Police get away with it.

 

[solarsavings]

I remember the injustice meted out to Lee Glegg
We ask men to train to kill yet when they do and we don't like the way they reacted to a given set of circumstances we want to hang them out to dry.

 

[Midwest]

There were a lot of 'surplus weapons left lying about ' after WW2, many of them used in farming communities . I suppose it is feasible that many could still be concealed in remote areas yet to be discovered.

This particular chap had a penchant for collecting. Collected his own pooh & kept in the fridge, shed loads of magazines, ---- memorably, Beatrice Potter books & some large live shell casings, amongst other things. Quietly living his life aware in some copse.

 

[Midwest]

We know that some of live in London and have lived and grown up with these threats day in and day out, but at the end of the day an innocent man was killed.

Soldiers are being hauled in for questioning for things that happened in NI 40 years ago but the Police get away with it.

Slightly different set of circumstances. In this incident, they were authorised to carry out this shooting.

The person(s) who provided the intelligence, and those that gave the authority perhaps had a case to answer.

Firearms commander that day...…….Cressida Dick.

 

[Squid]

This particular chap had a penchant for collecting. Collected his own pooh & kept in the fridge, shed loads of magazines, ---- memorably, Beatrice Potter books & some large live shell casings, amongst other things. Quietly living his life aware in some copse.

Damn I have some live shell casings somewhere and my Aunt in Poland in her summer house has a stack of white plates with a Swastika on the underside.......... we is un der suspicion.......

 

[telectrix]

Damn I have some live shell casings somewhere and my Aunt in Poland in her summer house has a stack of white plates with a Swastika on the underside.......... we is un der suspicion.......

better not allow any Greeks near them plates then.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Dunno where this 4 inches comes from anyway?

Autopsy.
Coroner determined the shots to the head were fired from a distance of between 1cm and 8cm.

 

[Midwest]

Autopsy.
Coroner determined the shots to the head were fired from a distance of between 1cm and 8cm.

Presumably, there're the ones that went into the poor chaps head, not the ones that missed?

 

[Pete999]

So I've just watched the first episode. What can I say other than scary times, it was based in the Midlands this week, it is frightening how many guns are on our streets and how many youngsters are prepared to use them.
Talking to several Armed officers it became clear that they believe all police officers should be armed with at very least a sidearm.

I constantly cling onto the hope that we are a better country than most and it scares me that if all officers are armed we will end up like America, having said that Ross raised a good point by saying why should we expect our police to respond to armed criminals whilst not armed themselves.
I don't know if they should all be armed but I realistically think it will end up that way.
What are your thoughts!!!

Sorry in advance, I was in the please force at School, please Sir can I be excused, I did apologize.

 

[Midwest]

Back on topic, found this piece in The Guardian;

UK police chiefs discuss officers routinely carrying guns - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/may/17/uk-police-chiefs-discuss-officers-routinely-carrying-guns

Seems if they did go ahead with arming of police, they will do it on the cheap. Current courses for AFO's are about 7 weeks, not the 2 weeks suggested in Mr Chesterman paper.

Not withstanding the 7 week course is for both hand guns & carbines etc; and also currently monthly training whereas the suggestion is just two days per year including refresher training & qualification shoots. Dunno what Chief is going to sign up for that, without substantially increasing their public liability cover.

 

[elsparko]

So I've just watched the first episode. What can I say other than scary times, it was based in the Midlands this week, it is frightening how many guns are on our streets and how many youngsters are prepared to use them.
Talking to several Armed officers it became clear that they believe all police officers should be armed with at very least a sidearm.

I constantly cling onto the hope that we are a better country than most and it scares me that if all officers are armed we will end up like America, having said that Ross raised a good point by saying why should we expect our police to respond to armed criminals whilst not armed themselves.
I don't know if they should all be armed but I realistically think it will end up that way.
What are your thoughts!!!

arm the police and the "criminals" will seek to defend themselves to the same standard, not all police officers are good people, nor are they all of the mental capability to carry a firearm, let alone discharge it upon a human.

 

[elsparko]

american criminal system promotes having a shootout with the police, who wants to go to jail for 10 consecutive life sentences? might aswell take your chances and blast away

 

[Midwest]

not all police officers are good people.

Thats a kinda bold statement. Not withstanding we select are cops from within are community. Some ne'er do wells do get through the selection process, but the bad'ens soon fall over themselves.

 

[elsparko]

Thats a kinda bold statement. Not withstanding we select are cops from within are community. Some ne'er do wells do get through the selection process, but the bad'ens soon fall over themselves.

"we" dont select them, whoever puts themselves forward and passes the very basic entry tests can become a police officer

 

[elsparko]

Hundreds of police officers convicted - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33635962

 

[Nigel]

"we" dont select them, whoever puts themselves forward and passes the very basic entry tests can become a police officer

What do you think is the basic entry test?

 

[elsparko]

What do you think is the basic entry test?

a watered down version of the military entry process, which is easy peasy, basic fitness examination and teamwork capabilities etc.

the police are barely responsible with what they have currently, no need to arm them and make the problem 100x worse

a builder i worked for had a son who played football for a living, but because he didnt do as a police officer ordered in an instant he got his arm shattered by a baton on a night out in a quiet village

most people in the police can barely handle the power they have without getting all uppity about themselves, the good ones are the least common denominator

i dont even pay attention to the glorified security guards that roam around in panda cars, if it isnt traffic or undercover police they literally dont matter.

 

[elsparko]

A 2012 report into police corruption in England and Wales by the IPCC noted the prevalence of the serious offences referred to them from 2008 to 2011; perverting the course of justice (33%), theft or fraud (30%), abuse of authority (15%), unauthorised disclosure of information (13%), and misuse of systems (9%).[212] The IPCC received 837 referrals during this period, mostly from UK citizens.[212] 47 cases were referred for prosecution, resulting in ten prison sentences, one suspended sentence and one fine.[212] As a result of all investigations into the corruption and misconduct of UK police and staff between 1 April 2013 and 31 March 2014, 134 police officers and staff were dismissed, while a further 711 faced disciplinary sanctions.[210] 103 Metropolitan Police officers were also suspended during this period.[213] Offences included drug related offences, bribery, theft or fraud, sexual misconduct, and information disclosure, where information disclosure and theft or fraud were the most common offences.[210][213] The Directorate of Professional standards considers the "exploitation of staff through inappropriate relationships with journalists, private investigators and criminals" the biggest threat to police integrity.[213]

 

[Nigel]

a watered down version of the military entry process, which is easy peasy, basic fitness examination and teamwork capabilities etc.

the police are barely responsible with what they have currently, no need to arm them and make the problem 100x worse

a builder i worked for had a son who played football for a living, but because he didnt do as a police officer ordered in an instant he got his arm shattered by a baton on a night out in a quiet village

most people in the police can barely handle the power they have without getting all uppity about themselves, the good ones are the least common denominator

i dont even pay attention to the glorified security guards that roam around in panda cars, if it isnt traffic or undercover police they literally dont matter.

Yep you have no idea.

 

[elsparko]

Yep you have no idea.

i have more idea than you, i can guarantee that, you want to arm every single police officer straight out of training, yeah there wont be any problems with that eh

you obviously have little concept on how offense/defense works, or human nature.

why has the human race being producing bigger and better defenses and weapons? is it because their enemy got bigger and better defences and the cycle continues?

i know 3 dirty coppers personally, all still in the force, one is cid

 

[elsparko]

and whilst were on it, the biggest dealer of weed in the city , his dad is only the chief of police! when his house got raided no charges! hmmmm fishhhhhhhhhhhhhhy

 

[elsparko]

Conflict escalation - Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conflict_escalation

you shouldnt bother to argue on a subject i know far more about than you.

The conflict escalation curve is a concept created by Michael N. Nagler.[citation needed] The conflict escalation curve proposes that the intensity of a conflict is directly related to how far dehumanization has proceeded. In other words, conflicts escalate in the degree to which parties dehumanize one another (or one party is dehumanizing the other).

 

[elsparko]

i do agree there should be more dedicated armed units, but not to give the fodder that just passed their training weapons, whats the first thing a 5ft odd female is going to do vs some roided up guy raising his voice a little? probably pull that weapon on him and escalate the situation.

 

[elsparko]

this is an example of the type of officer you want armed with firearms! uneblievable!

 

[Midwest]

"we" dont select them, whoever puts themselves forward and passes the very basic entry tests can become a police officer

Uummphh can't sleep.

We is the Royal 'We'. Police officers are selected from within our community, not from some far off planet. Consequently they come with their own views, opinions & traits from the section of society they originate from.

Entry is a long process, and eventually there will be only three routes. One being an apprenticeship, the others degree based, not something I quite agree with. It is not just taking a simple test, aka open book multi choice exam such as the current 18th. The process is designed to weed out the inappropriate. Costs a lot of money to train a cop, why waste tax payers money, on someone your gonna have to kick out in time. That said, no process is failproof, and some 'bad ens' get through.

I agree with you that even the best of cops can assume an authoritarian personality or hubris attitude. But thats a unpalatable human personality, not a police officer one.

You've quoted lots of links on police corruption, by my calculations, it amounts to 0.25% of police officers in England & Wales in the last three years. One of the reports you cited said 'Police forces have made significant progress in putting in place the processes to prevent and tackle corruption, according to a report launched today by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC), and this is in part due to strong leadership being demonstrated by senior police officers'.

Your welcome to your views elsparko, but if you were a cop, I'll reported you to senior officers, like I have done to the mods about some of your posts in other threads. Thats how it works. If you know bent coppers, why don't you do your public duty & report them?

The cops use conflict escalation, except they call it conflict resolution. And it starts off with officer presence, noting that some people (and I'm not just referring to the low life's of society), find just the very presence of a uniformed officer unsettling.

And lastly, I agree with you to arm all police officers would be foolhardy.

Whilst the percentage of officers prepared to carry a firearm has risen in recent times, the percentage 'who believe they and colleagues should be routinely armed' is still low;
Majority of police officers are prepared to carry guns, survey finds - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/22/one-in-three-uk-officers-want-all-police-to-carry-guns-survey-finds

You might note, that only 23% of police officers, replied to that survey.

See if I can get some sleep now.

 

[FatAlan]

Interesting that there is now a majority of officers wanting to be armed. Probably a relection of the lack of officers and back up available. After 30 years in the job I would still have preferred not to be armed but then it’s a while since I worked up in the smoke. There does however need to be more specialist firearms officers out there especially in areas with higher incidences of gang and gun crime. Over the years I have worked with plenty of numpties that I wouldn’t let near a firearm or even the uniform for that matter. In my view they won’t arm all officers due to cost. If I was firearmed trained I would at least want some sort of training on a weekly basis to stay familiar and as safe as possible with the kit ...that ain’t going to happen.

 

[Midwest]

Training for AFO's, as far as I'm aware is monthly. Qualification shoots were yearly, I think.

 

[elsparko]

Uummphh can't sleep.

We is the Royal 'We'. Police officers are selected from within our community, not from some far off planet. Consequently they come with their own views, opinions & traits from the section of society they originate from.

Entry is a long process, and eventually there will be only three routes. One being an apprenticeship, the others degree based, not something I quite agree with. It is not just taking a simple test, aka open book multi choice exam such as the current 18th. The process is designed to weed out the inappropriate. Costs a lot of money to train a cop, why waste tax payers money, on someone your gonna have to kick out in time. That said, no process is failproof, and some 'bad ens' get through.

I agree with you that even the best of cops can assume an authoritarian personality or hubris attitude. But thats a unpalatable human personality, not a police officer one.

You've quoted lots of links on police corruption, by my calculations, it amounts to 0.25% of police officers in England & Wales in the last three years. One of the reports you cited said 'Police forces have made significant progress in putting in place the processes to prevent and tackle corruption, according to a report launched today by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary (HMIC), and this is in part due to strong leadership being demonstrated by senior police officers'.

Your welcome to your views elsparko, but if you were a cop, I'll reported you to senior officers, like I have done to the mods about some of your posts in other threads. Thats how it works. If you know bent coppers, why don't you do your public duty & report them?

The cops use conflict escalation, except they call it conflict resolution. And it starts off with officer presence, noting that some people (and I'm not just referring to the low life's of society), find just the very presence of a uniformed officer unsettling.

And lastly, I agree with you to arm all police officers would be foolhardy.

Whilst the percentage of officers prepared to carry a firearm has risen in recent times, the percentage 'who believe they and colleagues should be routinely armed' is still low;
Majority of police officers are prepared to carry guns, survey finds - https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/22/one-in-three-uk-officers-want-all-police-to-carry-guns-survey-finds

You might note, that only 23% of police officers, replied to that survey.

See if I can get some sleep now.

why would i report them? they have done nothing to me, im not a snake

you seem to live in a perfect world, everyone has a price, even police officers, that uniform doesnt somehow make them a superior moral being.

 

[elsparko]

Interesting that there is now a majority of officers wanting to be armed. Probably a relection of the lack of officers and back up available. After 30 years in the job I would still have preferred not to be armed but then it’s a while since I worked up in the smoke. There does however need to be more specialist firearms officers out there especially in areas with higher incidences of gang and gun crime. Over the years I have worked with plenty of numpties that I wouldn’t let near a firearm or even the uniform for that matter. In my view they won’t arm all officers due to cost. If I was firearmed trained I would at least want some sort of training on a weekly basis to stay familiar and as safe as possible with the kit ...that ain’t going to happen.

the training is simple, dont point the business end of the weapon at anything you arent prepared to fire on

how long till police officers get targeted for their service weapons when armed?