Ross Kemp and the Armed please

[Nigel]

Okay cheers, just wondered.

I think the two situations are completely different.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

So they chased him onto a train and shot him 5 times in the face with a pack of sandwiches and a copy of the sun in his rucksack?

Very Funny, in fact hilarious, I am sure his family will laugh at your very funny Joke, haha.

He wasn’t chased, he was followed.
An undercover officer grabbed hold of him in a bear hug after alerting armed officers to his location.
Armed officers then dragged the undercover officer away, two officers then pinned Mendez down in his seat one either side holding on to his arms.
He was shot 7 times at point blank range, though 11 shots were fired.
Stephen Waldorf was shot 5 times in the Mayfair Mini shooting. Again 11 shots in total were fired in that incident.
The driver of the Mini and the other passenger were not hit.

What I find most worrying in the Mendez incident, is that 4 of the shots fired at point blank range, missed.

In the Waldorf incident, 2 shots were fired at a wheel of the Mini, the other 9 into the passenger compartment.
Again 4 shots missed.
One of the officers attempted to shoot Waldorf in the head at point blank range, but was unaware he had already discharged all 6 rounds from his revolver.

Both incidents took place in crowded public areas and it is a miracle that bystanders were not injured.

 

[Nigel]

He wasn’t chased, he was followed.
An undercover officer grabbed hold of him in a bear hug after alerting armed officers to his location.
Armed officers then dragged the undercover officer away, two officers then pinned Mendez down in his seat one either side holding on to his arms.
He was shot 7 times at point blank range, though 11 shots were fired.
Stephen Waldorf was shot 5 times in the Mayfair Mini shooting. Again 11 shots in total were fired in that incident.
The driver of the Mini and the other passenger were not hit.

What I find most worrying in the Mendez incident, is that 4 of the shots fired at point blank range, missed.

In the Waldorf incident, 2 shots were fired at a wheel of the Mini, the other 9 into the passenger compartment.
Again 4 shots missed.
One of the officers attempted to shoot Waldorf in the head at point blank range, but was unaware he had already discharged all 6 rounds from his revolver.

Both incidents took place in crowded public areas and it is a miracle that bystanders were not injured.

Could be a miracle or could be highly trained.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Could be a miracle or could be highly trained.

I would think their seeing eye dogs need further training.

 

[Nigel]

I would think their seeing eye dogs need further training.

Shame you feel that way. It must be so hard to ahave been there and make that decision.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Shame you feel that way. It must be so hard to ahave been there and make that decision.

Don’t need to have been there to make that decision.
Shots were fired at point blank range and missed the target.
Two analysises can be drawn from that simple fact.
One is that the officers who fired and missed, had never fired a weapon.
Two is that the officers panicked.
Both analysises indicate further training is required.

 

[Midwest]

We need it in every town though not just where politicians hang out. I don't know about SAS but SBS have to get from Poole so even on blue lights they aren't going to get very far before the attack is over.

They're based in regions, and use things called helicopters

Seriously, responding to any such event within minutes, anywhere within the UK is unachievable. But the response order, will be routine patrols, ARV's then CT-SFO's and Special Services. Most of these terrorist attacks, will, to achieve maximum impact occur at iconic events or places.

 

[Midwest]

Your correct. If only there was a country that done that so we could see how successful it is.

Oh yeah, there is. It is called America and their murder rate is off the scale.

I agree with you there about the US. But I've often wondered why other countries in the World, that the public have similar access to weapons, do not have the same level of gun crime?

 

[Midwest]

Don’t need to have been there to make that decision.
Shots were fired at point blank range and missed the target.
Two analysises can be drawn from that simple fact.
One is that the officers who fired and missed, had never fired a weapon.
Two is that the officers panicked.
Both analysises indicate further training is required.

That was some time ago, I agree with essex point, the actual deployment of firearms (sad as it is), was let down by poor or failed intelligence.

The actual tactic used then was new; instead of shoot to 'neutralise', changed to (when the suspect was thought to be carrying an IED) shoot to immobilise, which was shooting a suspect at very very close range in the head, hopefully preventing said explosion. So you can imagine even the best shot would be a bit edgy when doing so, when it could be your last moments.

 

[Midwest]

out of interest neil whats your defence regarding Ian Tomlinson?

What a strange comparison?

 

[Nigel]

I agree with you there about the US. But I've often wondered why other countries in the World, that the public have similar access to weapons, do not have the same level of gun crime?

The US by a long way have more guns available to the general population. 112.6 guns per 100 people. Couple this with much of America basically a third world country then you have a recipe for disaster.

 

[Midwest]

He wasn’t chased, he was followed.
An undercover officer grabbed hold of him in a bear hug after alerting armed officers to his location.
Armed officers then dragged the undercover officer away, two officers then pinned Mendez down in his seat one either side holding on to his arms.
He was shot 7 times at point blank range, though 11 shots were fired.
Stephen Waldorf was shot 5 times in the Mayfair Mini shooting. Again 11 shots in total were fired in that incident.
The driver of the Mini and the other passenger were not hit.

What I find most worrying in the Mendez incident, is that 4 of the shots fired at point blank range, missed.

In the Waldorf incident, 2 shots were fired at a wheel of the Mini, the other 9 into the passenger compartment.
Again 4 shots missed.
One of the officers attempted to shoot Waldorf in the head at point blank range, but was unaware he had already discharged all 6 rounds from his revolver.

Both incidents took place in crowded public areas and it is a miracle that bystanders were not injured.

Those two incidents, were completely different and worlds away in terms of police deployment of firearms & tactics. They failed (Warldorf) , in that they should of identified, located & neutralised the threat.

The Menezes incident was also a failure, because of the poor or incorrect intelligence, not withstanding it followed on the back of the London bombings, where everyone was a bit on edge. But what the AFO's did, was the tactic they had been taught and authorised to carry out.

 

[Midwest]

The US by a long way have more guns available to the general population. 112.6 guns per 100 people. Couple this with much of America basically a third world country then you have a recipe for disaster.

I've never looked at the figures, just other countries in the world I don't perceive have the same issues?

 

[Nigel]

That was some time ago, I agree with essex point, the actual deployment of firearms (sad as it is), was let down by poor or failed intelligence.

The actual tactic used then was new; instead of shoot to 'neutralise', changed to (when the suspect was thought to be carrying an IED) shoot to immobilise, which was shooting a suspect at very very close range in the head, hopefully preventing said explosion. So you can imagine even the best shot would be a bit edgy when doing so, when it could be your last moments.

Training at the time was to shoot at the spine at the neck point so that it would severe the nerves that would control things below the neck so they could not trigger a device.

It is easy to see how a couple of shots missed when attempting to be so precise.

 

[Midwest]

Training at the time was to shoot at the spine at the neck point so that it would severe the nerves that would control things below the neck so they could not trigger a device.

It is easy to see how a coulle of shots missed when attempting to be so precise.

No it wasn't.

It was shooting into the head mass. Some people have a perception that AFO's in other situations can shoot at a suspects legs to neutralise them. They are not taught that, they are taught to shoot the main body mass, more likely to hit the target and neutralise the suspect.

Trying to shoot at the spine would not be achievable; the target in this scenario is the head.

 

[Squid]

Who was the guy shot 6 times by Police when in the back of a car and survived, mistaken identity, I think in the late 80's?

Ah found it 5 times Stephen Waldorf.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

The training is not to shoot at the neck, it’s to shoot at the head.
The shots fired at the head were determined to have been fired at a distance of less than 4 inches.

The fact that 3 of the shots fired missed at such a close range, should be a concern for everyone.
My understanding is that there were 17 other passengers in the carriage.

 

[Midwest]

The training is not to shoot at the neck, it’s to shoot at the head.
The shots fired at the head were determined to have been fired at a distance of less than 4 inches.

The fact that 3 of the shots fired missed at such a close range, should be a concern for everyone.
My understanding is that there were 17 other passengers in the carriage.

I've already said that.

Even at such close range, a head is easily missable. The sights of the weapon are not used, just sense of direction.

An AFO must before firing ascertain; have I clearly identified my target, is my field of fire clear of innocents, what are the possibility of ricochet.

When someone could be construed to be about to initiate an IED, the last two could be considered a risk worth taking. ​

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I hardly ever used mine and sold it on (legally) a good few years back and it wasn't kept in the UK before anyone asks, all legal and above board at the gun club.

View attachment 44177

Is that a Tokarev?

 

[Nigel]

The training is not to shoot at the neck, it’s to shoot at the head.
The shots fired at the head were determined to have been fired at a distance of less than 4 inches.

The fact that 3 of the shots fired missed at such a close range, should be a concern for everyone.
My understanding is that there were 17 other passengers in the carriage.

You cannot miss the head from 4 inches. It is not possible. So something is not right in that statement.